Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

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warbucks
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Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by warbucks » 21 Sep 2014, 16:05

Hi Lads
Could we have a discussion/share views, on dedicated n/v that ideally is opperating around the 7-8 ish mag mark.
After owning many night vision's ive come to the conclusion that add on systems are robbed of performance due to having to go through the scope, and i think digital suffers more than tubed ???.
A while back when i spoke with Carl Moore he said the best foxing night visions are dedicated, and i now believe this is correct.
How does the "Some bloke" scopeless with Cosmicar 75 mm lens compare with say the Pulsar n550/750 with doublers (would this make them all around the 7-8.5 mag area ???), and what range would a fox be shootable with all of these's system's.
Please add your thought's on the above please, including "Dave" some bloke.

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some bloke
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by some bloke » 21 Sep 2014, 16:22

I'll kick off the replies then - I make it a rabbit rig for air and rimfire users.

I personally rate the 75mm Cosimicar rig as a typical HMR range rig suited to rabbit head kill zones at about 100 yards. Fox would be longer but how far would you use a 5.5~6 mag scope for fox?

You won't need a T20 at those ranges with this type of rig so the covert advantages are exploited to the full if you have light aware quarry. Focusing lots of IR into close nocturnal eyes is more likely to see it use it's other senses of hearing and smell to confirm your presence. We've all seen rabbits sit up and watch with one eye when alerted - it sees better sideways than head on.

Longer lenses can be used but they need more light which puts things back into the less covert realm.

I think most NV shooters will use more IR with 'scopeless' than they need because they haven't grasped the true merits of the concept. The concept being that it is much closer to tubed performance than rear add-on types and can often be used with no artificial light being emitted.
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by Marky610 » 21 Sep 2014, 16:44

warbucks wrote: A while back when i spoke with Carl Moore he said the best foxing night visions are dedicated, and i now believe this is correct.


Dave (warbucks)
Well I strongly disagree.

Add up the pro's and con's and add on wins every time.

I'm not saying don't buy a dedicated, buy what ever you fell is right for you.
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by Jirka » 21 Sep 2014, 17:45

As for comparison - I use add-ons where I have enough space on the mounting rail and scopeless where I need a compact rig. Both can be built to give results comparable to N550 (I have not tried 750 yet, so I cannot comment on that). I am now waiting for delivery of a FFP-reticled scope to try a Futon-like hybrid solution (removing ocular assembly and placing the sensor into second focal plane).
some bloke wrote:I think most NV shooters will use more IR with 'scopeless' than they need because they haven't grasped the true merits of the concept. The concept being that it is much closer to tubed performance than rear add-on types and can often be used with no artificial light being emitted.
I think many people want the best image quality they can achieve, not the quality that is just about sufficient for the job. This approach is quite normal in other areas of human activity and NV is no exception.

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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by some bloke » 21 Sep 2014, 18:23

Jirka wrote:As for comparison - I use add-ons where I have enough space on the mounting rail and scopeless where I need a compact rig. Both can be built to give results comparable to N550 (I have not tried 750 yet, so I cannot comment on that). I am now waiting for delivery of a FFP-reticled scope to try a Futon-like hybrid solution (removing ocular assembly and placing the sensor into second focal plane).
some bloke wrote:I think most NV shooters will use more IR with 'scopeless' than they need because they haven't grasped the true merits of the concept. The concept being that it is much closer to tubed performance than rear add-on types and can often be used with no artificial light being emitted.
I think many people want the best image quality they can achieve, not the quality that is just about sufficient for the job. This approach is quite normal in other areas of human activity and NV is no exception.

Like I said, some people have not grasped that it can be done with no light for light shy quarry, particularly for the stalk up. The best image quality requires IR light that can be switched on if needed for the shot for example but you lose the no light advantage.
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chas
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by chas » 21 Sep 2014, 20:48

Dave (Warbucks) not SB. :)

I'm assuming Carl was talking about tubed dedicated, no doubt he'll correct me if I'm wrong
As with all things, personal choice comes into it.
I use a Mars 6x dedicated aswell as add-ons and both have there part to play.
Before I bought the Mars I had serious doubts about how much I could shoot being restricted to 6x mag, once I had tried it all these fears were unfounded.
Don't ask me why but I'll happily shoot on 6x with that dedicated but would never do the same shot with an add-on at the same magnification., it's different, I don't know how or why but it's different.
I'm not sure if you've tried a tubed dedicated scope or not, but if you want to come over the border to East Yorks you are more than welcome to have a go, we could set out some targets so you can see what a 6x dedicated can do.
One advantage of a tubed 6x dedicated is the FOV if you're following a moving target, better for spotting through the scope aswell once you know they're in the area, another is the need to use minimal illumination in the form of a laser which last for days on one battery and is the size of your thumb, long thumb :lolno:
Having praised the Mars, I also like an add-on and use them frequently, as I say it's down to personal choice.
The downside of a tubed dedicated is it does tend to tie up a rifle unless you're able to swap over and retain zero and of course the cost of them.
I don't have a digi dedicated so can't comment, looked through em but not used them in anger.
Last edited by chas on 22 Sep 2014, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
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some bloke
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by some bloke » 21 Sep 2014, 21:19

chas wrote:Dave (Warbucks) not SB. :)

I'm assuming Carl was talking about tubed dedicated, no doubt he'll correct me if I'm wrong
As with all things, personal choice has a huge part to play.
I use a Mars 6x dedicated aswell as add-ons and both have there part to play.
Before I bought the Mars I had serious doubts about how much I could shoot being restricted to 6x mag, once I had tried it all these fears were unfounded.
Don't ask me why but I'll happily shoot on 6x with that dedicated but would never do the same shot with an add-on at the same magnification., it's different, I don't know how or why but it's different.
I'm not sure if you've tried a tubed dedicated scope or not, but if you want to come over the border to East Yorks you are more than welcome to have a go, we could set out some targets so you can see what a 6x dedicated can do.
One advantage of a tubed 6x dedicated is the FOV if you're following a moving target, better for spotting through the scope aswell once you know they're in the area, another is the need to use minimal illumination in the form of a laser which last for days on one battery and is the size of your thumb, long thumb :lolno:
Having praised the Mars, I also like an add-on and use them frequently, as I say it's down to personal choice.
The downside of a tubed dedicated is it does tend to tie up a rifle unless you're able to swap over and retain zero and of course the cost of them.
I don't have a digi dedicated so can't comment, looked through em but not used them in anger.
Out of curiosity Chris, could that be because you had to take the shot at 6 mag with the mars - but have the option to increase mag with the scope?

I know its an awful analogy but when I was a smoker I'd readily accept there were places I could not smoke - like hospitals etc, yet couldn't do without a ciggy for the same period in places it was OK to smoke. Weak willed addiction going on there yes, but psychologically?
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chas
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by chas » 21 Sep 2014, 21:53

Out of curiosity Chris, could that be because you had to take the shot at 6 mag with the mars - but have the option to increase mag with the scope? [/quote]

Yes and no Dave
I also have the option of sticking at 6 mag with an add-on but I'm not happy doing so and wouldn't take the shot for that reason, so yes I up the mag to compensate purely because because I feel I have to, not just because I can.
With the dedicated I'm happy to take the shot at 6x, if I wasn't I wouldn't take it.
I've had this discussion before and never really been able to say why it is that the dedicated makes the shot easier than an add-on at the same mag.
The ret on my dedicated is sort of transpatent so you can actually see what's behind it, maybe that's it.
Picture clarity is very good, it might be that.
It might be something to do with the FOV.
I just can't put my finger on it to be honest.
I emailed a few people before buying this scope and was given what I regarded as some ridiculous figures for range considering we were talking 6x, but they were right.
A couple of years ago I went out with Norman (V8-90), we set up the candle in a box at what we though was just over 200 yards, it was dark. :oops:
When my shot landed about 4 inches low and an inch to the right I was quite disappointed., until that is I got home and google earthed the field to find it was nearer 300 yards, work that out for a .204.
I would never have chosen to shoot that distance at 6 mag with an add-on.
So basically it makes no difference whether I choose to or not, 6x works well on a dedicated in my opinion, others may differ.
Can only say what I find and don't state it as gospel with my way being the only way.
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some bloke
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by some bloke » 21 Sep 2014, 22:18

I sometimes wonder if the aspheric lenses on some rigs make something look larger centre screen than the overall field of view/

I'm sure that shows my slight dyslexia but maybe you know what I'm trying to say?
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Re: Which n/v, "Some blokes" scopeless, n550,n750 ect

Post by chas » 21 Sep 2014, 22:34

Next time I'm out with it I'll see if I can pin the reason down, it might just be a personal thing.
An other reason may be that once you're pressed up to the eye cup you feel more in touch with what's going on, clutching at straws I know but there must be a reason, I just don't know what it is.
Glass quality certainly comes into it somewhere and of course you don't suffer the degradation of image that you can get using add-ons.
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